@nielsk are you running freebsd for your normal computer use?
154736
@33MHz my work machine runs FreeBSD 11.1-Release, my laptop currently TrueOS Unstable. And my backup laptop OpenBSD 6.1. So, yes for two desktop machines.
154770
@nielsk trueos? Don't know it. What's the draw?
154773
@33MHz that's a FreeBSD-Derivate following current and has already the drm-next-patches compiled in and gives out of the box a desktop-experience (but still not as easy to use as the typical Linux-Distro)
TrueOS.org
154775
@33MHz btw. why do you ask?
154848
@nielsk interested in the bsd's, but thought it was pretty unconventional to use it as a desktop. You like it for that, though, I assume?
154853
@33MHz FreeBSD has zfs which is great, OpenBSD is good to use but doesn't have VirtualBox. I like the better man-pages and some stuff like pf is not available on Linux.
I am not a systemd-hater but if you are, that's the way to go. But FBSD feels like
154856
@33MHz Linux 10 years ago. The experience is not as smooth. OpenBSD is better in that regard but has some shortcuts in terms of software because of its philosophy. But even better documentation.
154858
@33MHz and OpenBSDs update-experience is awesome. And TrueOS is quite good as well since it uses boot environments - a safety net for system upgrades
154861
@nielsk that's a comprehensive explanation, thanks. Sort of unfortunate to have to choose at all.
154864
@33MHz yes and they are quite different. Maybe start with dual boot or in VMs to have a look. Or if you have a spare machine…
154865
@33MHz Still fewer decisions than when it comes to Linux distros, no? @nielsk
154894
@jws of course but the differences are imho bigger between BSDs than between distros - especially since systemd @33MHz
154900
@nielsk @jws and there are lots of distros to choose from, but there's a clear culture of choice in distros (I think), because there are so many options. Easy for me to choose when there are many shades vs black and white. :)
154913
@33MHz well, it got easy for me: I dislike anything Debian-related, don't like the Arch-community, Gebtoo/Funtoo is source-based…so there is more or less only Fedora and CentOS ;) @jws
154923
@33MHz Free, Open, Dragonfly, and NetBSD come to mind off the top of my head. Seems like enough to me. ;)
// @nielsk
154925
@jws yeah. And then there are some specialized derivatives like TrueOS, GhostBSD, FreeNAS, pfSense, NanoBSD, Freesbie… @33MHz
154927
@nielsk You definitely want to s/pfSense/OPNsense as their community is better and they include security improvements from HardenedBSD (which is a security enhanced FreeBSD) // @33MHz @jws
154935
@lechindianer is pfSense FreeBSD? I always thought it is OpenBSD-based @jws @33MHz
154945
154953
@lechindianer ok, then I would prefer pfSense over OpenSense because it is based on OpenBSD. The Hardened BSD-people do. good work but imho I have a better feeling with what the OpenBSD-people are doing when the restrictions aren't a problem @jws @33MHz
154954
@nielsk Sorry for the confusion. what I wanted to say is this: pfSense is based on FreeBSD, but they don't care about exploit mitigations, that's why you should run OPNSense (sec fork of pfSense) which includes HardenedBSDs security improvements
155175
155180
@jws but the big ones differ enough that you can easily choose by your needs imho: does it need to run on a toaster? NetBSD.
Secure and opinionated? OpenBSD
Runs as much software as possible on old hardware? FreeBSD
Need HAMMER? Dragonfly @33MHz
154928
@nielsk Curious: What would make you conclude "Above all, I really need Hammer!"
// @33MHz
154932
@jws I did not yet dig deep enough to see what hammer makes it better than zfs @33MHz
154933
@nielsk Dealing with storage and networks always feels clumsy to me. Sure it's user error. Don't know what to do with the tools we have now, never mind a decade ago. :\ Any good resources for practical machine/SOHO caretaking come to mind?
// @33MHz
154934
@jws soho?
And storage-needs - hammer is for server-storage. I have for my mail backend several iscsi-servers and the imported LUNs are combined to zfs-mirrors which are exported as nfs. We are talking at least that level @33MHz
154948
@nielsk SOHO = Small Office/Home Office. So maybe not at that level!
// @33MHz
154949
@jws Get a FreeNAS for storage-needs and some server needs. It is pretty easy to use and you can use it on commodity hardware. I use it at home and we have one at work as an iSCSI-backup-server until our Ceph is ready for that @33MHz
154951
@jws and networking on that level. I don't know. A FritzBox (does that exist outside of Germany)? Something from Ubiquity? I heard good things about those. A machine for OpnSense? It depends on your needs actually @33MHz
154952
@nielsk It's less that I have trouble with a particular piece of hardware than with understanding how to put everything together and keep it running as an ensemble. Missing the big picture of system, processes, network planning.
// @33MHz
154956
@jws take a piece of paper and start drawing. That's how I do it and how the people I know do it. We have several whiteboards which aren't allowed to be erased for months that only show the structure of a new complex setup @33MHz
154957
@nielsk I'm a step behind even that. I've got basic questions like "what is a switch, when would I use it, and what does it do in terms of my diagram? What is this godforsaken box my ISP gave me, and can I replace it?" @33MHz
154963
Liking this bsd talk, but now I miss @0xmf.
154966
@jws ah, that level. If you would know German I could directly recommend a podcast. I try to think about a good book. I am mostly self-educated… @33MHz
154969
@nielsk Ich spreche Deutsch nicht so gut, aber ich kann probieren, den Podcast anzuhören.
// @33MHz
154975
@jws maybe Head First Networking by Al Anderson

@33MHz
154980
@jws and for documentation purposes use something like yEd https://www.yworks.com/products/yed
@33MHz
154958
@jws there is stuff with which you can ultimate things but that isn't cheap or needs usually yet another server and client-software etc. not worth the effort for smaller setups imho @33MHz
154959
@jws and then there: do you need an awesome desktop-experience and have the cash and don't care about free and open? MacOS @33MHz
154929
@nielsk Is PCBSD still a thing as well? @33MHz
154893
@jws that is now TrueOS @33MHz
154897
@nielsk That explains why it sounded so similar in goal, then. :) @33MHz
154899